What happens when two highly successful corporate executives decide to jointly tackle a monumental challenge? You get two highly talented and motivated people who have worked hard and smart their whole lives diving headfirst into a confrontation with reality. Thankfully for listeners, the score ended up Aileen & Glenda 1 -- Reality 0.
These two former Senior VPs wanted to start and sustain an independent podcast about managing life in a corporate environment.
In September 2021, Aileen Merciel and Glenda Pacanins started the Surfing Corporate podcast.
The
podcast's elevator pitch is: "Hosted by Aileen Merciel and Glenda
Pacanins, former media executives who have experienced first-hand what
really goes on behind fancy corporate doors (and have a slightly evil
sense of humor), this podcast aims to entertain as well as provide
practical advice to employees who are currently navigating turbulent
corporate waters."
The show lives up to its promise. It's engaging, has a sense of humor, describes the incongruities of corporate life, and offers solutions.
In addition, the co-hosts announced that they were up for a 2024 Ambie Award as an independent podcast. The Ambies are a series of awards given in the podcast industry. They are awarded by the Podcast Academy in two overall categories: Show Recognition and Talent Recognition. Even though, the show did not win, being nominated in a cluster of such noteworthy shows is an award in itself.
But Aileen and Glenda recently won the first annual Ear Worthy Independent Podcast Award for Best Workplace Podcast. With thousands of "indie" workplace podcasts in the running, it's notable that Aileen and Glenda stood out from the audio crowd.
We were able to sit down with Aileen and Glenda and ask them about themselves, their podcasting journey, and future plans.
Reading or listening to this Q&A can be an instruction manual for aspirational independent podcasts.
First, here are their backgrounds:Aileen A. Merciel (AM) was
She held corporate positions in Venezuela, Mexico, and the U.S. On the podcast's website, it says: "Coming from a creative background, Aileen was not blessed with a nose for office politics."
Glenda Pacanins (GP) was a Senior Vice President, Programming and Content Strategy NBC Universal, Telemundo Enterprises.
After working in corporate for more than 20 years, Glenda Pacanins is a self-described “recovering suit,” although she still can’t stop wearing heels to podcast recordings and PTA meetings.
Unlike Merciel, Glenda somehow managed to surf corporate relatively well.
Again, the podcast's website says: "She is fluent in English, Spanish, and most importantly, corporate bullsh*t.
This interview can act as a guided tour through the trials and tribulations of starting and maintaining an independent podcast.
Q.How did you develop the concept for Surfing Corporate?
AM: My way to process my existential work crisis was writing about it, and I did it the only way I know how: through a humorous lens, with a side of sarcasm and a dash of cynicism. I started jotting down some of my “corporate wisdom” tidbits here and there, then I started diving deeper into broader topics about corporate life and writing personal stories of my most embarrassing moments at work. Before I knew it, I had what looked like a decent manuscript. I titled it *Surfing Corporate: An Insider’s Guide to the Corporate World*. I sent this to my friend and former coworker, Glenda Pacanins, who emphatically insisted that I had to put this out into the world. She believed in this project from the very first embarrassing draft I sent her. Another key player in these early days was my close friend, Katie Rothfield, who, despite not working in corporate but in academia, loved the idea and generously offered to fine-tune the manuscript with her incredible writing and humor edits.
GP: From the moment Aileen spoke to me about Surfing Corporate, I knew it was the kind of content that corporate beings like me needed to have. At that point, I had been reading Harvard Business Review and Fast Company for years, but I had always wished there was business/career-related content that was insightful, but also honest, relatable, and, in a perfect world, entertaining, and there was Aileen telling me all about her vision for Surfing Corporate! Clearly, I had to become a big cheerleader for her to put it out into the world!
AM: With the manuscript ready, I began to research the publishing process and how to submit queries, which was when I discovered a crushing truth: publishing companies no longer read new authors’ proposals if they don't have a strong social media following. That was a real blow because I had no social media presence (except a personal private account with some close friends) and I didn’t have the faintest idea of how to build a brand or community from scratch. This moment was disheartening, and I considered quitting the whole thing, but given that I had already invested so much time in the Surfing Corporate idea, I decided to give it a try. At the very least I could test out if there was interest in the type of content I was creating, and more importantly, I would be able to add social media to the skills section of my resume (total game changer in today’s work market).
I knew from the beginning that I wanted a co-host who brought a very different perspective than my own. I needed someone who was very corporate by nature, knew how to navigate workplace politics, but was also a kind and decent human being. That’s when I decided to harass the queen of corporate etiquette, Glenda Pacanins. It took a few months (she kept saying no over and over), but I eventually wore her down and she said yes. And thus, the crazy journey began, as we went from legacy media execs to indie podcasters for the U.S. market.
GP: I had no doubt that, sooner or later, Surfing Corporate was going to get traction and start gaining a following because I absolutely believed in Aileen and in her vision for what she wanted to do with the brand. I just never thought my own voice was something the brand would want because, just as Aileen always points out, I had always been a buttoned-up, corporate-y kind of person and that had served me really well in climbing the corporate ladder. I didn’t have Aileen’s perspective of questioning things and finding absurdity in both the mundane and extreme parts of working in Corporate America. So when she asked me to join her in hosting the podcast, I thought she was nuts because I couldn’t wrap my head around what could I possibly add to the equation. Not to mention that I am hardwired to fear failure so putting myself out there like that was a huge risk. Needless to say, I am incredibly grateful that Aileen somehow saw something in me and knew that I could and should do it, and didn’t give up on trying to convince me.
AM: When we began discussing the format for the show, we knew we wanted to keep the humorous brand voice of the Surfing Corporate manuscript, but we also wanted to add research and insights from corporate players across various industries. Katie loved the idea of turning the manuscript into a podcast, and also volunteered to join the SCBC (Surfing Corporate Podcast Birth Committee). I knew I wanted a show that focused on authenticity and humor (two adjectives that don’t align with working in corporate environments), so the tone, music, and openness of our guests would be critical to creating this specific vibe.
We began by making a list of high-level executives that we knew, and strategizing how we could persuade them to be guests on our show. Initially, the people we reached out to (former colleagues) were super excited about the concept and idea, but then they became nervous about the repercussions that being on a podcast about corporate could have on their careers. “I’m afraid that if I’m honest this could get me fired” was something we got a lot. We realized we had to do something to make potential guests feel at ease and trust us.
Our guest for the pilot (an SVP of Marketing at a global media company) agreed to be on the show, but only if she could use an alias. And even with an alias, she was scared that someone could recognize her voice, so she asked us to delete some parts of the episode she was nervous about (which we did, but still lament to this day because the content was epic). Despite all its challenges, the pilot turned out to be a great episode, and it was our presentation card for future guests because it was a mix of vulnerability, research, insights and lots of humor. Once our potential guests heard the episode, they’d reach out and say, “I totally get what you’re doing here. I love it and I want to be part of it”.
After we persuaded four high-level execs to say yes, we knew we had something unique in our hands, and voila: The Surfing Corporate podcast was born.
Q. You both have extensive media experience. How did you make the transition to podcast co-hosts?
AM: Glenda and I both come from legacy media, so we knew how to create, develop, and market a TV show, but we knew nothing about podcasts. We had no idea how podcasting worked or what it took to produce, edit, or market a podcast. So I did what I always do in situations like this: I went down a rabbit hole of research, listening to multiple podcast shows and formats, and taking note of everything: Why did I gravitate towards certain hosts and not others? What type of co-host dynamics kept me hooked? What formats are more appealing to me and why? What existing podcasts could serve an inspiration for Surfing Corporate?
Another crucial moment in this process was when Glenda – who is the networking and nerd queen – suggested I attend a podcast conference in LA called WerkIt. Attending this conference was really important because it was my first formal exposure to the podcast community, and I absolutely fell in love with it. The conference paired me with a few mentors from WNYC Studios who were extremely helpful and gave me tips for the creation of our trailer.
GP: Expanding my list of go-to podcasts was really important because up until then, I mainly listened to podcasts from NPR and The New York Times. That’s why for the very first episode we ever recorded, Aileen had a moment of panic when I started recording because I was inadvertently channeling a news host. I was not at all being myself, and it was not at all the tone we needed for Surfing Corporate. After a few takes of Aileen politely telling me to record the intro again and again, she basically had to ask me point blank to actually try to speak like I wasn’t dead inside. Thankfully, that was all before our big VP guest joined us in the studio, so I was definitely more comfortable and more myself by the time the interview portion was recorded.
For me, the hardest part of the transition to podcast host was trusting my voice and allowing myself to just be me. As a lifelong corporate person, you learn to speak and guard yourself in a certain way, so feeling comfortable in shaking off those habits took me a bit to get used to. Plus, the fact that I was embarking on the adventure of podcasting alongside someone I trusted and admired, made it easier to take the plunge.
Q. How did you set up your studio? Or did you use an outside firm?
AM: The first few episodes were recorded in podcast studios. For our pilot episode, we traveled to New York City, where our guest was, and later we recorded several other episodes in a studio in Miami.
Then COVID hit and everything stopped. We put a pin in it (as we would say in corporate lingo) and focused on surviving those very trying times. I was sure that Surfing Corporate was over before it ever really started. There weren’t even offices any more for crying out loud. What guest was going to join us at a podcast studio?
GP: It was such a trying time on so many levels. Doing a fun podcast about working in corporate when the entire world was coming to grips with a global pandemic and navigating completely uncharted territory seemed like something so trivial, and not at all what people needed at that time. Then Aileen moved across the country to the Bay Areas, all I could think of was, “well, that was fun while it lasted.”
AM: What initially seemed like a disaster ended up being a blessing in disguise, because the world went remote, podcast recordings went remote, and we were able to have guests from all over the country and do high-quality pods with a simple app.
We finally launched on September 30th, 2021 (intentionally chosen because it’s “International Podcast Day”), and we immediately became rich and famous… JK, nobody listened except our friends and family because we forced them to. But still, we were proud that we had launched our first ever podcast
Q. Your unique theme impacts so many people at their workplace. How did you market the podcast?
AM. Honestly, we didn’t. We were so scared to put this out into the world that we launched it without any marketing. It was the softest of “soft launches.” We told our closest friends, and that was it. A few weeks later, Glenda suggested we do a press release to make it seem “somewhat legit.” At that point, we had about 500 followers on Instagram, so we would do an occasional post about the podcast there, but that was it. We hoped people would “just discover us.” We were so naive and didn’t understand how crowded the podcast space was and how hard it was for indie podcasters to break in.
We had a very loyal following, but it was so hard to get discovered by new audiences. That’s when we decided to go to one of the major podcast conferences in the US, called Podcast Movement. This helped us connect with other indie podcasters facing similar struggles and listen to people in the space who were knowledgeable and wanted to help new podcasters. We came out of there with a plan to reach out to other podcasts, propose promo swaps and episodes swaps, reach out to podcast newsletters to try to get featured, and become guests on other podcasts. It's all about trying to reach as many people as possible.
GP: Attending our first Podcast Movement conference was great because we finally got a chance to meet other podcasters and attend sessions from some of the big players in the industry and some well-established podcasters to gain insights from them. Having attended many similar conferences in the past, but for TV, it was an interesting and eye-opening experience for us. There was similarity in the passion that creators have for their projects, but it also seemed so different in how the podcast industry was still figuring itself out in areas such as metrics and revenue optimization.
AM: In terms of exposure, we also focused on trying to book guests with big followings, hoping they would have a great experience on the pod and promote us to their audiences. But what made a huge difference was submitting our podcast to the Ambies. Our goal was to have people in the industry listen to an episode of ours and, hopefully, recognize that it was a well-produced pod and spread the word. We never imagined we’d actually get nominated. That was a game-changer for us because immediately we were approached by podcast networks interested in having us join their platforms. The Ambie nomination resulted in a big marketing push that we could only have dreamed of a year before.
Q. How challenging is it to break free of the crowd of tens of thousands of other podcasts?
AM: SO challenging. Much more so than we expected. We originally planned to launch the Surfing Corporate pod in February 2020, but because of COVID, we ended up postponing it a year and a half. By September of 2021, it seemed like everyone and their mother had a podcast. During Covid, celebrities had gotten bored and many decided to jump on the podcast wagon, making it even more difficult for indie podcasters like us to break through. Glenda and I were not only NOT celebrities, but we were Latina women in our mid-40s, who did not have a social media following. We certainly weren’t rich and didn’t have the funds to hire a PR and marketing firm to promote us, and tragically, we weren’t related to Wondery, Apple, or Spotify execs.
GP: Honestly, that’s been the most surprising part of all of this journey to me, I truly believed that if you poured your heart into making great content, the audience would somehow find you. We really underestimated how difficult discoverability is in the podcast space, especially when you have no marketing budget. Luckily, Aileen devoted herself 110% to building the Instagram account while also working full-time on the podcast, so we could try to get some traction going. She even rolled out a Surfing Corporate newsletter to get another touchpoint established for the brand and our fans.
AM: It’s been such an uphill battle. Like, San Francisco level uphill. What kept us going was receiving DMs from people across the globe telling us how much they loved the show, how much they were learning from us, and that we made them laugh. And it was all word of mouth: someone who listened by chance and recommended our pod to their colleagues or friends. After decades of working so hard to hit ratings numbers for a show premiere, this felt so much more meaningful.
Q. What was your weekly workload like when producing an episode?
AM: Producing this podcast is a full-time job for me, as I handle all aspects of the process: guest outreach, topic and guest research, production, writing, editing, selecting music for the show, co-hosting, creating marketing materials, uploading episodes, and show promotion. For our latest season, we had an amazing intern, Stephany Gil de Sucher, who was an incredible addition to the team. Having someone not as close to the episode as the producer and co-hosts is always helpful, as they can provide more objective feedback on what worked and what didn’t. Steph and Glenda would both listen to my first draft of an episode and always provide great notes that improve the outcome significantly.
Q. What have you learned from the day you started the podcast until today?
GP: I absolutely agree with that, but I’d also add that it’s given me a whole new respect for people who do decide to produce podcasts, whether as a hobby, a side hustle or especially the indies who work full-time at it, because of how hard it is. As Aileen said, you really do have to LOVE doing this because unless you are the very special top 1% you won’t make enough money on podcasting alone. The biggest lesson I’ve learned is that if you have any hopes of making money through podcasting, you really do need to consider yourself and/or your pod as a brand and you need to focus on how to build that brand beyond the podcast. Using a mix of revenue streams is the really the only way to monetize your podcast and not depend solely on advertising and sponsorships.
AM: Know what you’re getting into: making a podcast is a lot of work that can bring you tremendous personal satisfaction but very little (if any) money. I have never been professionally happier than I have been making the podcast, and also, I have never been poorer. So, my thoughtful advice to aspiring podcasters is this: do your best to be rich, have a rich spouse, or even better, be born into generational wealth. That really helps.
GP: Well, of course, being independently wealthy ALWAYS helps, but since the majority of us aren’t, I’d suggest anyone aspiring to be a podcaster really go into podcasting with eyes wide open and with managed, realistic expectations, especially if you are on your own. I read an estimate that up to 90% of podcasts don’t make it past three episodes, and sadly, I can understand why that is. However, because I am an optimist at heart and I generally like to encourage people to follow their creative passions (if it’s realistic!), I do think that there are ways to help yourself and your pod increase your chances of success (or at least avoiding the dreaded “podfade” within a few episodes). It basically comes down to planning, and being honest with yourself as to what you can commit to doing so you can manage your own expectations.
If you happen to be partnering with a person (or people) to make the podcast, then make sure you really do like and respect them because, trust me, you will have your fair share of days when you want to rip your hair out. If at the very least you’re working with a person/people you like, it makes it easier and will help keep you sane!
Check out the Surfing Corporate podcast, now that you know much more about the challenges these two talented and successful women faced in starting and monetizing their podcast.
More than 50 percent of U.S. employees are immersed in a corporate environment. Surfing Corporate can help listeners understand that unique environment and then learn how to navigate those waters.
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