Podcaster Profiles: Michael Osborne From Famous & Gravy

Today in Podcaster Profiles, we take a closer look at a successful podcaster who has achieved the dream of most independent podcasters. Several years ago, Michael Osborne and his co-host Amit Kapoor secured a deal with a large podcast network, Wondery, for their indie podcast, Famous & Gravy.

 The Famous & Gravy podcast is indeed a success story for independent podcasters. The show began with a three-minute trailer in late December 2021. In 2024, the show became part of the Wondery podcast network, making that quantum leap from indie to network-supported show. 

The co-hosts explain the show: "We usually know famous people for one big thing, but there's more to the story. That's what Famous & Gravy is all about. A completely different angle on famous lives from modern history."

In our review of the show last month, the co-hosts told us: "We turn biographies inside out, throwing out chronology, sequencing by topics of interest, and leaving out the boring parts. Famous & Gravy is the show where we look at the holistic life of a famous person, beyond only what they’re known for, and discuss the non-obvious ways they contributed and connected, and went through points of inflection and flow. We look at their historical imprints, both cultural and personal, tiny and large, to give you a brand-new perspective and perhaps change what you thought you knew about them. Even if you have barely heard of the icon we biographize, you’ll get a fresh insight into modern history and a different way to appreciate a life story. You’ll also become pretty excellent at dinner parties."

For example, we learn that Betty White dreamed of being a forest ranger, comedian Norm Macdonald devoured Tolstoy novels, and writer Maya Angelou suffered from mutism, once for four years. 

When we asked Michael what the term Famous & Gravy meant, he answered, "What does that mean? Fair question. I’m not exactly sure who coined the phrase “back patio academics,” but I’ll blame Amit. As for 'not what they once thought they were,' that conveys a deeper motivation behind the show."

In our review, Michael's bio was decidedly brief (earth scientist turned producer and storyteller), so we asked him to expand it.

"I was born and raised in Austin, Texas. The city has, of course, changed a lot, but it’s still a central part of who I am. Austin’s always been a mashup of cultures and contradictions, and it’s a place steeped in nostalgia. I sometimes joke that it only takes six months of living here before you start bitching about how great the city used to be. I suppose there’s some truth to the idea that the best days are in the past, but, on balance, I still think it’s a fantastic place to call home, warts and all."

Michael continues: "Personally, I’ve never had a clear vision of what I wanted to be. Early in college, I thought I would be a lawyer, but halfway through my undergraduate degree, I discovered a passion for the earth sciences. That eventually led to me earning a PhD in climate science. I fell into podcasting in grad school and have been chasing that dream ever since. And even though my graduate work has absolutely nothing to do with the Famous & Gravy podcast, I still feel connected with the culture of academia."

We asked Michael about his entry into podcasting, and he responded: "To be 100 percent clear, though, podcasting does feel like my calling. I started podcasting about 15 years ago, and even before that, I saw myself as a student of audio storytelling. My only hope is that I can continue to forge a career in this ever-changing landscape. Every show I’ve ever been a part of serves as a vehicle for dialogue and inspiration. I’m someone who learns through conversations, and the great joy of this work is that it allows me to use the spoken word as a mechanism for satisfying my deeper curiosity. On some level, just about every podcaster I know feels the same way."

Of course, we had to ask about the genesis of Famous & Gravy.

Michael reflects and then says, "Amit and I are both in our mid-40s, which is often a phase of life where people start reassessing big decisions. I think we overuse the term midlife crisis, but there’s at least a lot more introspection at this age. Amit and I have each had unexpected personal and professional turns, and we’re both pop culture enthusiasts. So, through a series of conversations, we sort of stumbled into this idea that we could use stories about famous people as a way to do some deeper reflection on ourselves. You sometimes hear the idea that celebrities are kind of like mirrors, in that they reflect our values back on us. They represent exaggerated versions of our fears, our hopes, our contradictions, and our humanity. Also, we live in a mass media world where there’s just a lot of reporting and documentation of celebrity lives, so there's a lot of material to work with."

 When we probed more into the show and its thematic premise, Michael reflects, "So while our show traffics in pop culture nostalgia, the deeper goal is always to turn the stories back on ourselves. For the hosts of the show, and hopefully for the listeners as well, one core belief is that we all still have time to grow into who we want to be. Neither Amit nor I actually wants to become famous, but celebrity biographies are shared stories where we can all draw lessons. In that way, the show is part biography, part self-help, part spiritual quest."

Michel adds: "The last thing I’ll say is that, while it may sound cliché, we care more about the journey of life than the destination. It’s about the process, not the outcome.

"In other words, it’s a good thing that we are not who we once thought we were, because it means we are telling a surprising story about ourselves where the outcomes are still unknown. That’s exciting."

 

 When specifically discussing Famous & Gravy, Michael notes: "We don’t love the idea of celebrity, nor would we really desire fame. However, famous people have given us the gift of public visibility, which comes with life documentation in the form of books, articles, videos, and secondhand accounts, in addition to our memories of these individuals. With all of these sources, we now get a new comprehensive view of 'regular people with famous jobs', allowing us to integrate overlooked characteristics and appreciate them with a similar degree of discussion that we would apply to a favorite literary protagonist. So on each episode, through a lively segment-based conversation about a famous person who died in recent years, we give you a new way to view a life in a fuller and more fun way."

When we asked Michael, "Have you always been this skilled in audio/video, or was it a learning experience?" he answered modestly, "Well, first off, thanks for saying I’m skilled. However, no matter what skills I have, they have come from brute-force trial and error. In fact, I’d say that before I discovered podcasting, I had a real deficit of creative outlets in my life. I’ve probably always had an ear for storytelling, but I’ve had very little training in any traditional sense of the term. However, since I began working in this field 15 years ago, I’ve tried out several formats and show concepts. My first show was a long-form interview series about global environmental change. My second show was a high-production narrative about Silicon Valley's takeover of the world. Famous & Gravy is a designed conversation about pop culture biographies, built around categories and segments. Each show is different in terms of concept and approach."

We had to ask how the Wondery connection unfolded, and Michael observed: "There are two parts to that story. First, we put in the work—attending conferences, building relationships, and trying to understand what the big networks seek regarding their editorial missions. Wondery was always a dream partner for us."

Michael adds. "Second, and much more importantly, we’re continually refining the show’s concept. Every podcast is a learning journey, and we’re continually seeking new ways to enhance our content. We take feedback seriously and try to be as clear-eyed as possible about the listener experience, which is actually super hard for creators. There’s the show you think you’re making, and then there’s the show you’re actually making, and as a creator, you will always struggle to see the difference.

"Before Wondery, we had some traction—feature placements with Apple and SiriusXM, two Signal Awards—but there was definitely luck involved. The stars aligned, and Wondery decided to take a chance on us."

What advice can you give to indie podcasters who hope to experience a similar event?

Michael advises:" One of the biggest challenges in podcasting is developing a strong understanding of your audience, especially since there is no audience until you actually launch your show. With Famous & Gravy, we’ve worked to establish different lines of communication with listeners, which helped pave the way for conversations with Wondery.

"One of my favorite anecdotes about audience research on Famous & Gravy involves the story of our listener call-in segment. Every episode begins with a kind of “bluff the listener” quiz, where, at the end of the segment, we reveal the featured dead celebrity. We actually start the show with a call-out to listeners so that we can feature their voices on the pod.

"So, a few years into F&G, we got to a point where people were regularly writing in to take the opening quiz. Around that time, I read a fantastic book by Tom Webster called The Audience Is Listening. In that book, he suggests five questions that help creators understand their audiences. I began using the call-in segment to conduct some ad-hoc focus group research. Over time, I developed a much better understanding of our core audience -- both in terms of demographics and psychographics. Not only has that helped us create a better show, but, to your question, we now have excellent data about our listeners to share with our network partners. Companies and distributors are most excited about the opportunity to connect with specific audiences, so if you can describe your audience with precision, you bring something very attractive to the table."

Michel ends with this wise advice: "This is to say: get to know your audience really well if you’re interested in having a serious conversation with an industry partner."

We asked Michael about the current state of podcasting and what he would like to see improved. Intensity grips Michael's tone as he explains: "It’s tough here to not rant about video, as just about everybody agrees the video question is dominating the conversation. My personal view is that the role of video is different for the millions of shows out there, which is obviously unsatisfying. But I do wish people would be more careful about making grand pronouncements."

 
Michael continues: "One upside of the video conversation, though, is that I think it’s forced audio-first creators like me to ask deeper questions about the value of audio-exclusive experiences. I’ve said this elsewhere, but for me, podcasts are where I go to escape from the Internet. Now, don’t get me wrong—I spend most of my waking day looking at either a cell phone, a laptop, or a big screen TV. I love movies and TV, and I’m finding that I'm increasingly drawn to YouTube. But the real value of an audio-exclusive experience is that I give my eyes a break and engage with a totally different part of my brain."

Michael adds: "I know we talk a lot about how audio is excellent for multitasking, but I think that radically understates its importance. It’s easy to overlook how an audio-exclusive experience stands in contrast to so much of the rest of our day-to-day lives. So, to get to the second part of your question, I would like to see more audio creators lean into the unique qualities of audio-exclusive experiences. We need to ask ourselves: what can audio do better than other modalities, such as video, text, or short-form content? What makes great audio great?

"I think audio lovers like me are asking that question, and I’m certain that there are outstanding shows most of us have never heard of. So, personally, I would like to see distributors, journalists, companies, and creators become more proactive and vocal about articulating the value of audio-exclusive experiences. It’s on us to set high standards for excellence and create podcasts that you literally have to listen to."

We couldn't let Michael leave the interview without asking what he does for fun.

A smile spread across his features, as Michael says: "I am, at heart, a tree-hugging hippie. I try to block out at least one week a year for a digital detox, and it's almost embarrassing how much I need that. I enjoy multi-day backpacking and river trips, and I am generally having the most fun when I spend the day outdoors and the night in a tent."

Let's wrap up today with a brief discussion of Famous & Gravy. The co-hosts' sardonic wit is evident, yet they resist the temptation to try to be funny just to get a laugh and instead allow the conversation to organically generate.

About the show, Michael Osborne says: "On every episode, we choose a dead celebrity, and we ask, 'Would you want that life?'" Our episode gallery will give you a sense of our range."

 I like the choices they make for celebrities, from James Lipton's buttoned-up smugness to actor Alan Rickman's undervalued skill. I also appreciate that the podcast doesn't exploit the most famous people, but rather the most interesting ones.

Michael adds: "Famous & Gravy is really a collage. In developing the show, we’ve pulled inspiration from a wide range of eclectic sources—The Rewatchables, You’re Wrong About, Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me, Doug Loves Movies, If Books Could Kill, Slate Political Gabfest, and many others. I love to pattern-match across podcasts to see if I can find cross-cutting lessons for how to craft great audio. I’m a big fan of podcast deconstruction, and I think that’s how most storytelling works—we borrow, remix, and refine until we land on something that feels original.

At Ear Worthy, we believe that Famous & Gravy is one of the best podcasts out there. Wondery may be a lot of things, but the company is not stupid. They know they've caught lightning in a bottle here. It's often reported that podcast listeners are a bright, insightful group, and I believe that's accurate. In that case, podcast fans have found that the co-hosts -- Michael Osborne and Amit Kapoor -- can meet and exceed their expectations.

After reading this interview, I believe you will agree that Michael Osborne embodies the concept that while perfection is not attainable, if we pursue it, we can achieve excellence.

Michael concludes the interview with: "Make no mistake—working on Famous & Gravy is fun as hell, and I consider myself extraordinarily lucky to be able to do it. The show gives me the creative mandate to read biographies, go down Wikipedia and YouTube rabbit holes, search for obscure information in libraries, and, most importantly, connect with friends. What could be more fun than that?"